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Auteur Fil de discussion: How about lending a hand to Wikileaks?  (Lu 668 fois)
JeanC
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« le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 05:34:22 »
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Pirate Parties Supply Wikileaks With Much Needed Servers.

Article:  http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-parties-supply-wikileaks-with-much-needed-servers-101205/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Torrentfreak+%28Torrentfreak%29

So, how about the Pirate Party of Canada lending a hand as well?
Mikkel Paulson
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« Répondre #1 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 05:40:56 »
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The matter has been discussed at some length, and based on the range of opinions I've heard on the matter, I don't think it's acceptable for the Federal Council to make this decision independently. Consequently, I'm planning to wait until the General Meeting on the 19th before we come down one way or another. It's not ideal timing, but democracy is slow.
JeanC
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« Répondre #2 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 08:57:38 »
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So let's wait and see what will come out of the General Meeting concerning Wikileaks.
However, as a matter of principle, I sincerely believe the Pirate Party of Canada should lend some of its "mirror" resources to Wikileaks. The Pirate Party of Canada may agree or disagree with some or most of Wikileaks actions, especially when looked through the Canadian Constitution and its body of laws, and I have no problem with a clear statement from the Party on these matters. But I have a problem with the powers that be trying to shut down Wikileaks and I think the Pirate Party of Canada should adopt a decisive stand on this matter.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will fight on your side for your right to say it", a phrase attributed, most probably wrongly, to the French philosopher Voltaire, that takes all it true meaning in the present situation.
Joshua Doucet
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« Répondre #3 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 10:07:23 »
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I agree with JeanC on this lending a hand. Such as our counterpart Pirate Parties have done. Yes Wikileaks hasn't been perfect but it is in the end doing a good thing and we don't have to support everything Wikileaks does, we can easily say we agree with so and so action, but not subsequent actions that violate personal privacy.

We have the ability to help with our torrent program and other ways.

JeanC determine exactly how we can help and make a motion for it.  I'll likely second.
JeanC
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« Répondre #4 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 11:03:55 »
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I'm not a member of the Pirate Party of Canada, only a Forum member and as such I don't know if I'm entitled to make a motion. I don't even know how to make a motion! But nevertheless, here goes:

I make a motion to the Pirate Party of Canada to join the coalition of Pirate Parties hosting a network of mirror sites for Wikileaks.

Mikkel Paulson
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« Répondre #5 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 11:21:30 »
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A more detailed explanation of the current situation:

https://www.pirateparty.ca/uncategorized/on-wikileaks

I'm not a member of the Pirate Party of Canada, only a Forum member and as such I don't know if I'm entitled to make a motion. I don't even know how to make a motion! But nevertheless, here goes:

I make a motion to the Pirate Party of Canada to join the coalition of Pirate Parties hosting a network of mirror sites for Wikileaks.

Unfortunately, you're not entitled to do so.
JeanC
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« Répondre #6 le: 5 d�cembre 2010, 11:36:31 »
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I was just reading your blog on WikiLeaks through RSS when the notification for your reply to my "motion" came up. Yes, I figured I wouldn't be entitled. Thanks for taking the time to clarify this simple matter.

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« Répondre #7 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 12:33:55 »
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I'll take a look at it. Unfortunately I don't know enough of about how we can help to do anything.
securr
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« Répondre #8 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 12:58:43 »
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I think it's important to help Wikileaks for a couple of reasons.

One, their work is consistent with our policies of open government and freedom of information. Regardless of whatever minor critiques that can be said about how they do business, the fact that they are one of the few entities that are willing to spread vital information to the public means that they should be protected as much as possible. The attacks on them are over-blown. This is a website that received sensitive information, then contacted numerous journalists to help them both digest and redact the documents. Not only journalists, but the State Department themselves were given the opportunity to go through the cables and offer any suggestions - though the US government refused. These are not radicals. They're not criminals, or terrorists. They're journalists. Journalists that are experiencing an unprecedented assault on their right to freedom of the press. Reporters without Borders and the International Federation of Journalists have joined in the support of the group. Given our mandate, it would be nothing short of an embarrassment if we didn't do something as simple as set up a mirror - something that well over 300 people have already done.

Secondly, and in relation to the global Pirate Party movement, it's important that we also support the Swiss Pirate Party. Wikileaks is not only being attacked by the US government, but by a world wide force of diplomats, corporations and members of parliament. We have a unique opportunity as a pillar of the Pirate Party to begin responding in an equally global way. Not only would supporting Wikileaks support the ideals of freedom of speech, information and open democracy that we all believe in but it would also strengthen our ties with Pirate Parties around the world. And the stronger those connections are, the stronger we'll be in the future.
securr
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« Répondre #9 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 06:35:09 »
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1) They are known to release names of people who are associated with certain organizations which ended up being fired from their jobs or chastise in their communities for doing so. So basically an organization leaning on individual's privacy.

If those people are engaged in wrongdoing then they should be fired. Wikileaks also has a harm minimization policy in place and over the course of the last few mega leaks has increasingly been more sensitive to the act of redacting the information. The last two leaks (the embassy cables and the Iraq War Logs) were fully redacted with the help of multiple expert journalists from respected newspapers. Wikileaks has also contacted the US State Department multiple times and offered them a chance to redact any information themselves. The reason only a few hundred of the embassy cables have been released thus far is that each cable is being analyzed by multiple groups (Wikileaks as well as professional journalists) to determine what information can be shared and what should censored in order to protect innocent people.

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2) The organization acts as a Bolshevik in obtaining government data by hacking into their system - a true government transparency is to get the government to release the information themselves. Rather than hijacking the system by few people with probably insufficient knowledge on exactly how to release this information without violating any laws (individual privacy, etc) and the ramification that would follow it (deteriorating diplomatic relationship wary nations).

I don't know where you got this information. Wikileaks doesn't hack into anyone's system. They publish classified materials that are obtained via mail and a digital submission box. This is the equivalent of a journalist publishing classified material that he receives in a brown envelope on his doorstep. In addition, and in regards to the embassy cables, none of them were classified as Top Secret and a large portion of them were unclassified. Couple this with the fact that the documents were available on SIPRANET and accessible by almost two million government employees.

Citation
Transparency government is transparency in their own country, this organization releases information around the world that may not comply with THEIR laws of information-accessibility. Though I agree with government transparency - we must also respect the law of other countries (China, Russia, U.K, Chile, etc).

You're implying then that information such as the US accidentally abducting and torturing a German citizen should remain secret because said government does not want people to know that information? That flies in the face of holding governments accountable.

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Acts of information-piracy by organizations by wikileaks like this is only gonna cause the government to tighten their control on information by making it even more inaccessible from other hackers (example: after 9/11 securities at airport increases, now more difficult to hijack plane) and the general public that request them. Protesting, demonstrations, electing transparency-candidates, introducing laws for transparency, etc is the way to go. Not acting like Bolshevik by retorting to criminal activity.

So your argument in this instance is that we shouldn't bother getting information about governmental wrongdoing because they are just going to make getting information about their future wrongdoing more difficult? Also, criminal activity? There is a large contingent of lawyers worldwide that contend that nothing about Wikileaks' activities is illegal under US law. There are statutes in most first world jurisdictions that protect the right of whistleblowers to publish information about wrong doing (classified or not). In the case of the United States, Daniel Ellsberg, was found innocent of all charges against him after he revealed the Pentagon Papers. Unlike Wikileaks, which merely publishes the information they are provided, Daniel Ellsberg actually stole the documents himself. You can't just use the phrase "criminal activity" when you feel like it.

Your statement about "revealing minor comments" indicates to me that you really haven't been following any of the information flowing out of the cables. Some of these minor stories include a risked nuclear disaster hidden from the press, multiple accounts of the US interfering with foreign judicial processes in order to protect troops or CIA agents from facing trials, the US practically writing Spain's copyright legislation, US air strikes on refugee camps, US manipulation of the Copenhagen accord, an incredible amount of information about Afghan corruption, information about the Russian government's ties to the mob, the US State Department and the CIA conducting spy operations against UN officials, etc etc etc etc etc. A scant couple of hours with the Guardian's newsblog would indicate that there is far more to these cables than "minor comments".

 I don't scoff at people often, but I'll have to make an exception in this case.
« Dernière édition: 6 d�cembre 2010, 06:38:49 par securr »
Mikkel Paulson
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« Répondre #10 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 07:07:06 »
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3) Transparency government is transparency in their own country, this organization releases information around the world that may not comply with THEIR laws of information-accessibility. Though I agree with government transparency - we must also respect the law of other countries (China, Russia, U.K, Chile, etc).

Don't be silly. Information is either public or it isn't. Once information is available from either official or unofficial channels, there's nothing to prevent it from crossing borders.

If you're prepared to wait until China or Russia implement transparency, I'll see you sometime next century.

4) Acts of information-piracy by organizations by wikileaks like this is only gonna cause the government to tighten their control on information by making it even more inaccessible from other hackers (example: after 9/11 securities at airport increases, now more difficult to hijack plane) and the general public that request them. Protesting, demonstrations, electing transparency-candidates, introducing laws for transparency, etc is the way to go. Not acting like Bolshevik by retorting to criminal activity.

A fair point.

My previous scathing remarks on another discusion was simply a surprise-knee-jerk-reflect that may could have been dealt with better.

Thank you for the apology.

If those people are engaged in wrongdoing then they should be fired.

Like the people outed in the BNP leak? It may be a scary party, but its members still have the right to freedom of association.
securr
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« Répondre #11 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 08:17:25 »
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Like the people outed in the BNP leak? It may be a scary party, but its members still have the right to freedom of association.

Well put. Though I would argue that in the case of people being fired for being a member of the BNP one should be able to have that redressed in a court of law. However, I'm no expert in UK labour law. In the case of social ostracization, well, given the nature of their political beliefs, is that not to be expected?

There is, of course, always the risk of violence and threats to their person, which is never okay and the information could have facilitated that. But how much of that burden does Wikileaks really bare?

It's worth debating to be sure, though I don't see it as a particular black mark against the organization. Though, you could argue that it bares no real "historical value" which is one of the qualities they use as their razor when deciding what to leak and what not to.
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« Répondre #12 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 08:28:17 »
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Exactly. Even if the harm is only caused indirectly, if the release causes only harm and no public good, WikiLeaks should consider itself culpable, even if the law does not.
JeanC
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« Répondre #13 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 09:04:23 »
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Like the people outed in the BNP leak? It may be a scary party, but its members still have the right to freedom of association.

My point exactly when I started this post: freedom of association, freedom of expression and, in the particular case of WikiLeaks, freedom of the press. That WikiLeaks be right or wrong is open to debate, but that the freedom of the press exercised by WikiLeaks be threatened by government agencies all over the world is, in my opinion, wrong and the Pirate Party of Canada should take a clear stand on that particular issue by allowing some of its resources as mirror to the WikiLeaks site.

I refer to securr's reply #8 for a brilliant exposition on why the Pirate Party of Canada should do so.

Consequently, I'm planning to wait until the General Meeting on the 19th before we come down one way or another. It's not ideal timing, but democracy is slow.

Yes, democracy can prove to be a slow process, but sometimes it has to be shifted in high gears.
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« Répondre #14 le: 6 d�cembre 2010, 09:23:54 »
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Good way to get on the NSA and CIA watch lists.
Don't be idiots - there's no advantage to the party to mirror this shit and these are not the kind of people who "need our help".
Please produce the email where Assange has asked the Pirate Parties for assistance.

J

The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.
-Plato
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